Mayor Thallemer Rolls Out Proposed Rules For Outdoor Dining
May 2, 2017 at 5:46 p.m.
By David [email protected]
Mayor Joe Thallemer presented the “Downtown Outdoor Dining Standards” to the city council Monday night. No decisions were made as he wants the council to provide guidance on the standards. The Board of Public Works and Safety will approve the final standards at one of its future meetings.
“We’ve noticed we’ve got some outdoor dining that occurs already. There’s potential for the alleyway. We’ve actually been working on this for a little while,” he said.
A visit to Valparaiso was made last year because that city has viable outdoor dining activity. City officials got a copy of Valparaiso’s rules to look at them and see how they might fit the Warsaw community. Thallemer said the Warsaw Community Development Corp. looked at the issue initially and was in favor of it. He said he asked the WCDC to look at Valparaiso’s standards and make some changes that might be more appropriate for Warsaw. Goshen’s outdoor dining standards also were reviewed.
“Today this is just kind of a presentation, an introduction. I know it’s somewhat lengthy and there’s things in here that maybe we don’t necessarily need, but I wanted to open up the conversation with the council. Rob (Parker) is here representing the WCDC and the Chamber,” Thallemer said.
In the standards, there’s mentions of widths to keep the walkways clear. In some places it says 4 feet and 5 feet in other instances, Thallemer said.
Parker said, “We just don’t want the downtown to be the wild, wild west when it comes to outdoor seating, so we just need to have guidelines to put in best practices. And this is just a first attempt at that, it’s just a discussion point.”
To comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act, Parker said the minimum width for the walkway was 4 feet, but that can still be a challenge so the WCDC thought 5 feet would be better.
“That’s up for everybody’s discussion. We just think that it’s probably best that we had something that everybody could comply with and would make the downtown look better versus just haphazardly putting things out wherever you want to willy nilly,”?Parker said.
Councilwoman Cindy Dobbins said she liked the 5-foot width for walkways around dining areas, but was concerned if that space was more toward the street because there’s already some challenges with the flower boxes and people getting in and out of the passenger side of vehicles.
Thallemer asked the council how it felt about the outdoor dining applications be approved annually. Councilman Mike Klondaris said for the first year, reviewing the applications after the first year was probably acceptable.
Councilwoman Diane Quance said the standards are very specific about table color. She said some of the trendy places owned by younger people might want brighter, fluorescent colors to match their logos and other things. “Why would we not allow their seating to match it?”
Under section 2.2, which is concerning tables for outdoor dining, it says, “Tables may be colored or of a natural unpainted material (i.e. wood, metal, etc.). Tables are not permitted to be white plastic or of any fluorescent or other strikingly bright or vivid color.”
Parker responded, “The reason is you don’t want to have to be. I think you want to have a cohesive downtown. That’s the argument. If you allow for any color and any color palette, it would look very disjointed, and I don’t think that’s the look you want.”
“So the idea would be the outdoor seating is not supposed to be advertising the business, but as a service to the patron?” Quance asked. Parker said that was correct, but there was probably room to adjust that.
Thallemer said he didn’t see anything in the 10 pages of standards regarding trash. City Planner Jeremy Skinner pointed out section 2.10 regarding upkeep, repair and maintenance, which starts out with, “Applicants shall keep all outdoor dining areas clean and in sanitary condition.”
Dobbins said there was an area in the standards that prohibited trash containers. Skinner said there are trash cans as part of the city’s streetscape. If it’s a business that is serving outdoor dining, he said the business should take the diner’s trash back in. If a person buys from the business and takes it outdoors to eat, the diner should use one of the city’s trash cans. Dobbins said the city may need to look at providing more and/or bigger trash cans around downtown.
Chapter 3 of the standards is about violations and fines. It provides for a verbal or written warning to the business owner operating the outdoor dining facility; fines of $50 to $250 for each day a violation exists; suspension/revocation of privilege including removal of elements of outdoor dining facility; and further legal action if necessary.
Thallemer asked the council how it felt about the fines. “I would rather have the ability to pull the permit than have to go around and issue fines and collect fines and all of that,” he said.
Councilman Jeff Grose said the stages for the violations, from a warning to fines to the permit being pulled, seemed firm and fair. City attorney Mike Valentine agreed with Grose and said he didn’t see a problem with the stages of dealing with violations.
“I would guess, that 100 percent of the time, you’d get compliance,” Valentine said.
The standards also addresses the application process and requirements, barriers, planters, types of furniture, chairs, umbrellas, signage, certificates of approval, hours of operation and smoking. All activities associated with an outdoor dining area or facility “shall cease no later than 10 p.m. Establishments wishing to hold a special event of longer duration shall receive approval from the Board of Works prior to the event,” the standards state.
Thallemer said the standards are a work in progress and he asked the council to get their concerns to him in the next week, and then it will be before the council again at its May 15 meeting. He hopes to have the standards before the Board of Works for approval at its May 19 meeting.
Thallemer then asked Parker for an update on the alley activation project between city hall and Oak & Alley.
“We are progressing quite nicely,” Parker responded.
He said the last time he looked at the crowdfunding page for the outdoor seating project, it was just over $44,000. “My projection is that we will hit the number,” he said. If $50,000 is raised for the project, the state will provide a matching $50,000 grant for it.
Friday is the deadline, and Parker said they were waiting on some businesses to write some checks. It’s had 115-117 people making contributions toward it, he said.
Mayor Joe Thallemer presented the “Downtown Outdoor Dining Standards” to the city council Monday night. No decisions were made as he wants the council to provide guidance on the standards. The Board of Public Works and Safety will approve the final standards at one of its future meetings.
“We’ve noticed we’ve got some outdoor dining that occurs already. There’s potential for the alleyway. We’ve actually been working on this for a little while,” he said.
A visit to Valparaiso was made last year because that city has viable outdoor dining activity. City officials got a copy of Valparaiso’s rules to look at them and see how they might fit the Warsaw community. Thallemer said the Warsaw Community Development Corp. looked at the issue initially and was in favor of it. He said he asked the WCDC to look at Valparaiso’s standards and make some changes that might be more appropriate for Warsaw. Goshen’s outdoor dining standards also were reviewed.
“Today this is just kind of a presentation, an introduction. I know it’s somewhat lengthy and there’s things in here that maybe we don’t necessarily need, but I wanted to open up the conversation with the council. Rob (Parker) is here representing the WCDC and the Chamber,” Thallemer said.
In the standards, there’s mentions of widths to keep the walkways clear. In some places it says 4 feet and 5 feet in other instances, Thallemer said.
Parker said, “We just don’t want the downtown to be the wild, wild west when it comes to outdoor seating, so we just need to have guidelines to put in best practices. And this is just a first attempt at that, it’s just a discussion point.”
To comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act, Parker said the minimum width for the walkway was 4 feet, but that can still be a challenge so the WCDC thought 5 feet would be better.
“That’s up for everybody’s discussion. We just think that it’s probably best that we had something that everybody could comply with and would make the downtown look better versus just haphazardly putting things out wherever you want to willy nilly,”?Parker said.
Councilwoman Cindy Dobbins said she liked the 5-foot width for walkways around dining areas, but was concerned if that space was more toward the street because there’s already some challenges with the flower boxes and people getting in and out of the passenger side of vehicles.
Thallemer asked the council how it felt about the outdoor dining applications be approved annually. Councilman Mike Klondaris said for the first year, reviewing the applications after the first year was probably acceptable.
Councilwoman Diane Quance said the standards are very specific about table color. She said some of the trendy places owned by younger people might want brighter, fluorescent colors to match their logos and other things. “Why would we not allow their seating to match it?”
Under section 2.2, which is concerning tables for outdoor dining, it says, “Tables may be colored or of a natural unpainted material (i.e. wood, metal, etc.). Tables are not permitted to be white plastic or of any fluorescent or other strikingly bright or vivid color.”
Parker responded, “The reason is you don’t want to have to be. I think you want to have a cohesive downtown. That’s the argument. If you allow for any color and any color palette, it would look very disjointed, and I don’t think that’s the look you want.”
“So the idea would be the outdoor seating is not supposed to be advertising the business, but as a service to the patron?” Quance asked. Parker said that was correct, but there was probably room to adjust that.
Thallemer said he didn’t see anything in the 10 pages of standards regarding trash. City Planner Jeremy Skinner pointed out section 2.10 regarding upkeep, repair and maintenance, which starts out with, “Applicants shall keep all outdoor dining areas clean and in sanitary condition.”
Dobbins said there was an area in the standards that prohibited trash containers. Skinner said there are trash cans as part of the city’s streetscape. If it’s a business that is serving outdoor dining, he said the business should take the diner’s trash back in. If a person buys from the business and takes it outdoors to eat, the diner should use one of the city’s trash cans. Dobbins said the city may need to look at providing more and/or bigger trash cans around downtown.
Chapter 3 of the standards is about violations and fines. It provides for a verbal or written warning to the business owner operating the outdoor dining facility; fines of $50 to $250 for each day a violation exists; suspension/revocation of privilege including removal of elements of outdoor dining facility; and further legal action if necessary.
Thallemer asked the council how it felt about the fines. “I would rather have the ability to pull the permit than have to go around and issue fines and collect fines and all of that,” he said.
Councilman Jeff Grose said the stages for the violations, from a warning to fines to the permit being pulled, seemed firm and fair. City attorney Mike Valentine agreed with Grose and said he didn’t see a problem with the stages of dealing with violations.
“I would guess, that 100 percent of the time, you’d get compliance,” Valentine said.
The standards also addresses the application process and requirements, barriers, planters, types of furniture, chairs, umbrellas, signage, certificates of approval, hours of operation and smoking. All activities associated with an outdoor dining area or facility “shall cease no later than 10 p.m. Establishments wishing to hold a special event of longer duration shall receive approval from the Board of Works prior to the event,” the standards state.
Thallemer said the standards are a work in progress and he asked the council to get their concerns to him in the next week, and then it will be before the council again at its May 15 meeting. He hopes to have the standards before the Board of Works for approval at its May 19 meeting.
Thallemer then asked Parker for an update on the alley activation project between city hall and Oak & Alley.
“We are progressing quite nicely,” Parker responded.
He said the last time he looked at the crowdfunding page for the outdoor seating project, it was just over $44,000. “My projection is that we will hit the number,” he said. If $50,000 is raised for the project, the state will provide a matching $50,000 grant for it.
Friday is the deadline, and Parker said they were waiting on some businesses to write some checks. It’s had 115-117 people making contributions toward it, he said.
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