Mayor, Landlord Share Difference Of Opinion
July 22, 2017 at 4:19 a.m.
By David [email protected]
Zartman and Babcock took their concerns recently to the Indiana Public Access Counselor alleging a violation of the Indiana Open Door law after learning members of the Board of Works on two occasions were voting on issues through email conversations. The two men received city documents after they filed a Freedom of Information Act request with the city, seeking documents involving the “alley activation” project in downtown Warsaw.
Thallemer’s comments Friday began with him publicly acknowledging Assistant City Planner Justin Taylor’s work on the alleyway.
“There was some insinuation that there was some problems there, but Justin followed every state statute and local ordinance to a ‘T.’ Initially, he requested an estimate, which didn’t have a specific design. It was just a ‘how much is this going to cost us as we look at this Patronicity and (Indiana Housing & Community Development Authority) grant.’ Both of them require to have some type of budget. They don’t want us trying to raise $100,000 if we’ve only got a $20,000 project. So it was important to come up with an estimate,” he said.
One of the emails in question, Thallemer said, showed Taylor asked for an estimate.
“As we got to the end, a lot of things were taken out because the scope of the project dictated exactly how many windsails and how many planters and there were way more put in than were asked for, but again, from the estimate side we were just narrowing down to the final proposal and ... the way he handled that met all the state statutes,” he said.
Thallemer said city engineer James Emans worked diligently with Taylor so all donated funds were utilized efficiently.
“Also, with the broadening of that definition of a public meeting, had pretty good discussions with (Indiana Public Access Counselor Luke) Britt and talked to him about the complaint that’s been filed. We talked about when that changed and how that’s affected municipalities, counties, school boards. It’s not so much statutory as it is a rule interpretation that he made in late 2013 or 2014,” Thallemer said.
He said Britt explained that it’s a learning process and there’s really no intention of any wrongdoing “other than there ... there can’t be any type of verbal approvals given and acknowledgement with emails.”
He said the problem is that the Board of Works only meets twice a month.
“It creates a problem because now we have to advertise for an extra meeting for an item that will take less than 30 seconds,”?he said.
Thallemer said he told Britt that the city respected that ruling and would adhere to it.
At a mayor’s roundtable discussion early Friday in Mishawaka, Thallemer said he learned other mayors face the same problem. Two of the 12 mayors who were at the roundtable have board of works meetings weekly to avoid any problems.
“Unfortunately, it’s just the way it is. When we started doing this 15 years ago, the previous clerk-treasurer ... was OK with the verbal approvals but she wanted it documented. And that was the reason the emails were utilized, and now that can’t be done and we recognize that and will move ahead,” Thallemer said, adding that it will probably cost the city more money to have to have more advertised public meetings, which require 48-hour notice to local news media.
He said the city will start calling extra meetings as necessary.
Zartman said he hadn’t planned on speaking until the mayor made his comments.
“The original Boren builder estimate was Feb. 11.?It was a very detailed estimate. The only difference between the Feb. 11 estimate and the May 25 estimate is this email,” he said, which was from Taylor to Josh Boren. He read it, which said, “We hit our goal. Can you put together a proposal that has enough material cost taken out to make the contract less than 50K? We need to make the contract below 50K so we don’t have to bid it out.”
Zartman said what Thallemer said about the emails was inaccurate.
Thallemer said, “No, it wasn’t inaccurate, Chad. We asked for an estimate. And the details of the labor and the materials were not broken down. And the city has the ability to buy materials, through our local purchasing ordinance, and that allows us to take those out and then the amounts of sales and the amounts of materials were put in as a general estimate, we didn’t need all those. It was a general estimate that worked out to a proposal.”
He said Taylor’s request to keep it under $50,000 was essentially saying, “We don’t know where we stand, would you let us know what these material costs are? What we’re going to have when you take these extra sales and planters out.”
If it came out below $50,000, it wouldn’t need to go before the Board of Works for approval. He said Taylor’s choice of words might not have been the best, and the city probably wasn’t required to give that email to Zartman but it gave him everything he asked for.
“And now we’re to the point where we went from an estimate to a final proposal and that was the final number,” Thallemer said.
Zartman told Thallemer he was entitled to his opinion, but the public would decide on what the emails said. Thallemer responded what he said was what happened, but Zartman was entitled to his opinion. Zartman said the email and the Boren don't lie.
“But if you look at one of the previous emails you requested, and it’s certainly our privy to ask for an estimate, and that’s what we did. We didn’t ask for a quote upfront,” Thallemer said, estimating the email was dated Jan. 19 and was among the emails Zartman was given.
Zartman asked Thallemer, “So to you, it doesn’t look suspicious?”
“Not one bit,” Thallemer replied.
“When someone says get it below $50K so we don’t have to bid on it?” Zartman asked again.
“Not one bit,” Thallemer repeated.
“So it’s just business as usual,” Zartman said.
Thallemer said the wording may not have been chosen perfectly, but Taylor was just trying to break down the original estimate to see what it was going to be at. He said the state allows projects up to $150,000 to not have to be bid out, but each community establishes its own level and in 2008 Warsaw established it at $50,000. He also said there was no ill intent on Taylor’s part and he would stand behind what he and the city engineer did.
“Absolutely, there’s nothing wrong with what we did and we’ll take that to whoever we need to,” Thallemer said.
Babcock, who said he had no intentions originally of speaking either, told Thallemer that his statement regarding email voting, at the end of the day, was “wrong.” Britt ruled what the law was and his statement said it violated the law.
When he previously served on the city council for one term, Babcock said he never voted via email. Thallemer said the city council never did, it was the Board of Works.
Jason Brown, owner of One Ten Meatery, commented, “I would just like to say, from another local downtown business, I’m absolutely thrilled with the developments that have been happening downtown. From a two-building business owner downtown that pays a lot of tax dollars and spends a lot of my time downtown, I am absolutely thrilled with what the government and Warsaw is doing.”
Zartman and Babcock took their concerns recently to the Indiana Public Access Counselor alleging a violation of the Indiana Open Door law after learning members of the Board of Works on two occasions were voting on issues through email conversations. The two men received city documents after they filed a Freedom of Information Act request with the city, seeking documents involving the “alley activation” project in downtown Warsaw.
Thallemer’s comments Friday began with him publicly acknowledging Assistant City Planner Justin Taylor’s work on the alleyway.
“There was some insinuation that there was some problems there, but Justin followed every state statute and local ordinance to a ‘T.’ Initially, he requested an estimate, which didn’t have a specific design. It was just a ‘how much is this going to cost us as we look at this Patronicity and (Indiana Housing & Community Development Authority) grant.’ Both of them require to have some type of budget. They don’t want us trying to raise $100,000 if we’ve only got a $20,000 project. So it was important to come up with an estimate,” he said.
One of the emails in question, Thallemer said, showed Taylor asked for an estimate.
“As we got to the end, a lot of things were taken out because the scope of the project dictated exactly how many windsails and how many planters and there were way more put in than were asked for, but again, from the estimate side we were just narrowing down to the final proposal and ... the way he handled that met all the state statutes,” he said.
Thallemer said city engineer James Emans worked diligently with Taylor so all donated funds were utilized efficiently.
“Also, with the broadening of that definition of a public meeting, had pretty good discussions with (Indiana Public Access Counselor Luke) Britt and talked to him about the complaint that’s been filed. We talked about when that changed and how that’s affected municipalities, counties, school boards. It’s not so much statutory as it is a rule interpretation that he made in late 2013 or 2014,” Thallemer said.
He said Britt explained that it’s a learning process and there’s really no intention of any wrongdoing “other than there ... there can’t be any type of verbal approvals given and acknowledgement with emails.”
He said the problem is that the Board of Works only meets twice a month.
“It creates a problem because now we have to advertise for an extra meeting for an item that will take less than 30 seconds,”?he said.
Thallemer said he told Britt that the city respected that ruling and would adhere to it.
At a mayor’s roundtable discussion early Friday in Mishawaka, Thallemer said he learned other mayors face the same problem. Two of the 12 mayors who were at the roundtable have board of works meetings weekly to avoid any problems.
“Unfortunately, it’s just the way it is. When we started doing this 15 years ago, the previous clerk-treasurer ... was OK with the verbal approvals but she wanted it documented. And that was the reason the emails were utilized, and now that can’t be done and we recognize that and will move ahead,” Thallemer said, adding that it will probably cost the city more money to have to have more advertised public meetings, which require 48-hour notice to local news media.
He said the city will start calling extra meetings as necessary.
Zartman said he hadn’t planned on speaking until the mayor made his comments.
“The original Boren builder estimate was Feb. 11.?It was a very detailed estimate. The only difference between the Feb. 11 estimate and the May 25 estimate is this email,” he said, which was from Taylor to Josh Boren. He read it, which said, “We hit our goal. Can you put together a proposal that has enough material cost taken out to make the contract less than 50K? We need to make the contract below 50K so we don’t have to bid it out.”
Zartman said what Thallemer said about the emails was inaccurate.
Thallemer said, “No, it wasn’t inaccurate, Chad. We asked for an estimate. And the details of the labor and the materials were not broken down. And the city has the ability to buy materials, through our local purchasing ordinance, and that allows us to take those out and then the amounts of sales and the amounts of materials were put in as a general estimate, we didn’t need all those. It was a general estimate that worked out to a proposal.”
He said Taylor’s request to keep it under $50,000 was essentially saying, “We don’t know where we stand, would you let us know what these material costs are? What we’re going to have when you take these extra sales and planters out.”
If it came out below $50,000, it wouldn’t need to go before the Board of Works for approval. He said Taylor’s choice of words might not have been the best, and the city probably wasn’t required to give that email to Zartman but it gave him everything he asked for.
“And now we’re to the point where we went from an estimate to a final proposal and that was the final number,” Thallemer said.
Zartman told Thallemer he was entitled to his opinion, but the public would decide on what the emails said. Thallemer responded what he said was what happened, but Zartman was entitled to his opinion. Zartman said the email and the Boren don't lie.
“But if you look at one of the previous emails you requested, and it’s certainly our privy to ask for an estimate, and that’s what we did. We didn’t ask for a quote upfront,” Thallemer said, estimating the email was dated Jan. 19 and was among the emails Zartman was given.
Zartman asked Thallemer, “So to you, it doesn’t look suspicious?”
“Not one bit,” Thallemer replied.
“When someone says get it below $50K so we don’t have to bid on it?” Zartman asked again.
“Not one bit,” Thallemer repeated.
“So it’s just business as usual,” Zartman said.
Thallemer said the wording may not have been chosen perfectly, but Taylor was just trying to break down the original estimate to see what it was going to be at. He said the state allows projects up to $150,000 to not have to be bid out, but each community establishes its own level and in 2008 Warsaw established it at $50,000. He also said there was no ill intent on Taylor’s part and he would stand behind what he and the city engineer did.
“Absolutely, there’s nothing wrong with what we did and we’ll take that to whoever we need to,” Thallemer said.
Babcock, who said he had no intentions originally of speaking either, told Thallemer that his statement regarding email voting, at the end of the day, was “wrong.” Britt ruled what the law was and his statement said it violated the law.
When he previously served on the city council for one term, Babcock said he never voted via email. Thallemer said the city council never did, it was the Board of Works.
Jason Brown, owner of One Ten Meatery, commented, “I would just like to say, from another local downtown business, I’m absolutely thrilled with the developments that have been happening downtown. From a two-building business owner downtown that pays a lot of tax dollars and spends a lot of my time downtown, I am absolutely thrilled with what the government and Warsaw is doing.”
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